00:00:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to conserving both. I want to give a big shout out to anax Hunt for their support of this podcast. I’m your host, Lake Pickle, and I’m just gonna come right out and tell you this episode is special and it’s a lot different from many of the episodes we’ve done in the past. From the stories you will hear, to the man who we will focus on, whose influence on America simply cannot be overstated, to the celebration of hunting and the outdoors as a connective tissue that transcends even the most distant of ideologies. My gracious friends, do we ever have some ground to cover it? Let’s dive into it.
00:00:56
Speaker 2: He first came here as Josh Pickering has told you to make a deal hunted, and as far as I know, he’d never killed a deer, he certainly didn’t act like it. And over here where I’ll take you if you’d like to go. That morning, right after daylight, I heard a shot. I said, I’ll believe I’ll wait a few minutes before I go up there, And I did, and maybe ten minutes later, I heard another shot, I said. I waited another ten minutes. Then I heard a third shot, and I decided I’d better go up there. Something must be wrong. And I did go up there. What happened, Justice? He said, well, my rifle is not on. Must have bumped it on the way down here. He said, I shot it this deal right over here, and he pointed to three different places. I said, Justice, if you don’t mind, let me just make sure you didn’t hit that deal. David, I didn’t hit the deal. My rifle is off. I said, yes, sir, but please just let me go check. And I did, and I had a dog with me a mountain curve. Turned that dog out and he found that first Dear. I said, well, what about the second, Dear Justice, show me exactly where it was. I know I didn’t hit him. He never showed any sign of being shot. I turned the dog out, found that book. The same thing with the third book. We had three. As far as I know, those were the first, Dear Justice Scalia killed, and.
00:02:30
Speaker 3: The fact that it killed three on one day. The statue of Littletation was run on out.
00:02:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:02:37
Speaker 1: Now that is a fantastic story. It has everything comedy, a first successful deer hunt, and the fantastic irony that the subject of this story is not only the centerpiece of this podcast episode, but the one and only former Supreme Court Justice Antonine Scalia that accidentally shot three deer in a single morning. And believe me, the story I only get it’s better from here. But now that the ice has been broken, allow me to properly set the stage before we go any further. The United States Supreme Court a panel of nine judges that is inarguably the most powerful court system in the entire country. Cases such as Brown versus Board of Education, Roe versus Wade, United States versus Nixon, Bush versus Gore. Some of these cases may sound familiar to some of you, some of them you may not have ever heard of, and I’m just listing off a few of them here. But the point I’m trying to make is that the judges that serve on this court are responsible for making decisions that collectively shape the legal and social landscape of the good old Us of A in an undeniably profound way. That’s just a fact. A seat on the Supreme Court only becomes vacant by three ways. A sitting Justice either dies, retires, or is removed through impeachment. Allow me to introduce you to Justice Antonine Scalia, a man whose name you’re probably already familiar with. He was born in nineteen thirty six to an Italian immigrant father and an Italian American mother. He grew up in Queens, New York, and even attended high school in Manhattan. He went to college at Georgetown University and received a law degree from Harvard, and then subsequently it’spent a few years practicing law, teaching and even serving in the Nixon and Ford administrations in various Justice Department roles. In nineteen eighty two, President Ronald Reagan appointed Scalia to the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit. This is considered by many to be one of the most prestigious courts in the federal system and a common pathway that leads to the Supreme Court.
00:04:41
Speaker 2: This is a CBS new special report.
00:04:44
Speaker 4: Here is Dan Rather.
00:04:46
Speaker 5: President Reagan is expected to appear in the White House briefing room very shortly to announce a new Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court.
00:04:54
Speaker 6: Here is the President of the United States, and I am pleased to announce my intention to nominate William ATE’s Rencliff, currently an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, as the new Chief Justice of the United States. Upon Justice rehnquist confirmation, I intend to nominate Antonin Scalia, currently a judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, as Justice Rehnquist’s successor. In taking this action, I am mindful of the importance of these nominations. The Supreme Court of the United States is the final arbiter of our constitution, of the meaning of our laws. As a new nominee, well as much as you can.
00:05:33
Speaker 5: Say yes on the substance of it, I think I’m with Justice Ranquist. I know a good idea when I hear one. The My personal thoughts are for somebody who spent his whole professional life in the law, getting nominated to the Supreme Court is the culmination of a dream, of course, and I’m greatly honored that the President would have such confidence in me, and hope for the Senate will do so as well, and I’ll certainly do whatever I can to live up to it.
00:06:05
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty six, President Reagan nominated Scalia to the Supreme Court, where he was confirmed by a ninety eight to zero unanimous vote. Justice Scalia served on the Supreme Court from nineteen eighty six until his unexpected death in twenty sixteen, just shy of thirty years of service. He was known for his sharp and colorful writing, his quick wit, and his dominant presence during oral arguments.
00:06:30
Speaker 4: What do you think is the reason that America is such a free country? What is it in our constitution that makes us what we are? If the difference is between constitutionality and unconstitutionality, do you know of any case where this Court said, Gee, on its face, this statue could be constitutional. What the legislative history requires us to interpret it in such a fashion that it’s unconstitutional? Can you need me one case where we’ve done that? But I can think of the word constitution.
00:06:58
Speaker 3: It doesn’t mean a billy.
00:06:59
Speaker 5: It means and say a person has a sound constant to here’s a sound structure.
00:07:04
Speaker 1: But it is also known for his humility and charm. Friends of his are quoted in saying that he was always the smartest man in the room, but also the kindest. In this episode, we’re going to take a deep look into the life of not only a man but a Supreme Court Justice of the United States, a cherished friend by many, a true icon in American history, as well as a hunter and an outdoorsman. And I’m gonna challenge all of you as we march towards this topic to approach this episode with an open mind, because the very fine folks that are gonna help us tell this story are going to paint Justice Antonine Scalia in a way that you may have never seen him before. Let’s get into it. It’s late May and I’m walking into an old cabin situated in the middle of a hunting property in South Mississippi. But this is no ordinary hunting camp. This camp has quite the story to tell. Well, I’ll tell us that while me plantation, the property where the three deer in a Day story that you heard earlier took place, and I’m now being shown the cabin that Justice Scalia would stay in during his trips down here. And like the camp is quaint, it’s layout in interior decre or that of a quintessential old school southern deer camp.
00:08:19
Speaker 2: He slept in that bump on the backs back there lake on.
00:08:22
Speaker 1: The right, Justice Scalia did right, that was his bump.
00:08:28
Speaker 3: Did you have a mattress on them.
00:08:30
Speaker 2: I think it did. I remember that it was pretty hard though. I think they may have put asft mats on that.
00:08:38
Speaker 1: Which one was his right there to your right right here, right there, bottom bump. And what was the first year that he would have come here, two thousand, two thousand.
00:08:53
Speaker 2: He came in, somebody thou back then the only heat here was that soul and that since that time he pushed more heat in here.
00:09:01
Speaker 3: But that cut bed stove was.
00:09:03
Speaker 1: On and heat.
00:09:04
Speaker 2: He wanted to put his own wood in land, which is what he did. And he chopped his own wood.
00:09:11
Speaker 1: Not every time, but sometimes he liked to do that, just because he wanted to, and because.
00:09:16
Speaker 2: He wanted you. We didn’t make him do it. I gave you that he would put put wood in the farm, right you get up at night and come over in put the wood in the bottom.
00:09:27
Speaker 3: But he was comfortable here. Oh, he loved the place.
00:09:32
Speaker 1: Bunk beds to make room for multiple hunters, TV trays as night stands, deer antlers and property maps hanging from the wood panel walls, and an old wood stove in the living area. This is the kind of camp that to me feels like a perfect mix of right at Home and in nineteen nineties filled and stream article all at the same time. It’s perfect and I loved everything about it. It’s truly one of those places that you can sense the stories and memories that it holds the second you step foot inside it. And speaking of those stories, it’s time we heard some of them. But first let’s meet the men here going to tell them to us.
00:10:08
Speaker 3: I’m Charles Fickling. I’m retired from the Wild Circred Court of the Wheels and formerly a US District Jude.
00:10:15
Speaker 7: I’m Wesley Bralyn from Hattiesburg. I’m in the real estate business.
00:10:21
Speaker 2: David Bramlett of United States District Judge Natches.
00:10:26
Speaker 1: Can you explain to me where where we’re at right now?
00:10:31
Speaker 2: Well, we’re in the southern part of Wilkinson County. The name of the property is Wyoming and where it got the name, I don’t know, but it’s across by use or creek as you saw when you came in here, sort of in the hinterlands of the county. There’s only one road in. There is a road through the back if you have to use it. Difficult to get here sometime if there’s bad weather, but that’s where we Oh, how.
00:11:00
Speaker 1: Long have you been here?
00:11:03
Speaker 2: We came in about I’ve been here many years since I was a child hunting here, but we were able when my family was able to purchase it in the about nineteen eighty five.
00:11:14
Speaker 1: You’ll learn as we go further into this episode that these are some special men that we’re hearing from, from the importance of their positions to society to their actions that are reflective of their character. I grew nothing but admiration for all of them throughout this conversation. Let’s hear now how Justice Scalia fits into all of this.
00:11:34
Speaker 3: Justice Scalia was a member of the Supreme Court that was a signed to the Fifth Circuit, and the Field Circuit included Texas, Louisiana, and Mississipply, and we would have Field Circuit meetings and Justice Scalia would be there, and the University of Southern Mississippily my chamber before in was my chamber before in Hadisburg, and the University of Southern Missippi called me and said, can you get Justice Scalia to come and speak? And I invited him and he turned me down. Next year I invited him to turned me down, and then I went to see him the next time we were meeting, and I said, mister Justice, if you will come to speak at USAM, we’ll give us some bass fishing and turkey hunting. And he accepted that time.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: He was interested in that.
00:12:23
Speaker 3: He was interested, so he came to speak at the University of Southern Missippi and that’s how we started our relationship with Justice Scalia.
00:12:31
Speaker 1: I suppose it goes without saying, but someone isn’t gonna make it on the Supreme Court without having some high level intelligence and holding out on saying yes to a speaking engagement until a little fishing and turkey hunting is thrown in to sweeten the deal. Well, now that’s my kind of intelligence.
00:12:50
Speaker 3: When he first came, we started hunting with I did not have enough land to hunt turkeys on whenever he came, so I got my friend Wesleybry and Lewis Griffin to help me entertain Justice Scalia and Western Breland had two places uh, one in Haddisberg and one UH sat around Pervis on Black Creek, and so uh Lewis’s place was up at Clarko, which was Clark Lauderdale County line, and Lewis’s place was called a Bolt and it was just a h They framed it in and then taken plyboard and fixed the walls and then they had put tar paper on on the outside and that was it. And he he loved going to a bolt, uh and he and uh Lewis loved to sit on the front porch and smoke a cigar or cigarette and drink a little scotch. And but it was a simple place. And so we first started hunting at a Bolt and at West’s lake house, and then Wesley had a on Clik Creek, so that’s where we hunted. And then Judge Bramlett was chamorn of a committee to put on a workshop at Laflayette for the district judges and he asked me, allowed to get Justice Scalia to come down and stick to it, and I did so Judge Bramlet said, well, we can go up to my place at Wyoming and deer hunt, and that’s what we did. That’s when we got started here.
00:14:29
Speaker 1: That’s all they got started at this, that’s how we got started here. And the four of y’all hunted together for how many years?
00:14:34
Speaker 3: Twenty years?
00:14:35
Speaker 1: Take me back to so, I mean, when you think about the Supreme Court justice and just knowing what I know about Scaliah. You know, when I had heard of him of being you know, other, he wasn’t just Supreme Court justice. He was Supreme Court justice that liked to hunt and fish, which is someone like me. That was that was intriguing. I was like, really, guy, like a guy in his position likes to hunt and fish. When you when you met him and you originally extended that invite, did you know that he would even have an interest there to do that?
00:15:06
Speaker 5: Not?
00:15:07
Speaker 3: Really, it was just on a whim and he had not flished. He had not hunted that much before. I think he had fished some, but I don’t think he had done very much hunting really. I think we saw introduced him to hunting. And on the way back, I started to say a while ago when we started taking him back after the first trip, I’d intended to invite him back, and we got to the airport with Lewis Griffin said, much Justice, we hope he’ll come back. He said, I’ll come if you if you’ll have me. Little did we know that from the next twenty years we were going to hunt together one to three times a year for twenty years.
00:15:44
Speaker 1: It’s a strong friendship. This, that’s and that’s to me, man, that’s that’s so interesting because again, when I was young and hearing about him, I knew if Scalia’s being this outdoorsman. And I know y’allt just from the time that I’ve spent around the three y y’all are all. Y’allre all humble men. But I mean, y’all, I would have never It’s it’s plausible I would have never known him as that had y’all not taken him on those trips.
00:16:08
Speaker 3: And you know, he told him from you know, we’d get at four o’clock in the morning drive where we went hunting and so forth, and somewhere along the way he said, Charles, if we’re gonna if we’re gonna hunt together, you need to call him Nino.
00:16:20
Speaker 1: The name Nino is a common Italian nickname for Antonine Justice. Scalia was given this nickname as a child. Close friends and family called him Nino throughout his life, and he clearly embraced it. However, trying to put myself in this situation, I imagine I would be pretty uneasy being so candid with one of the most powerful judges in the world. But I will say this one little detail does speak volumes to the man’s humility.
00:16:45
Speaker 3: Well, I was a young judge. Want to call a baby judge, and that was very awkward. Uh, I’m coming, miss Justice, you know, your honor. But eventually we were together enough that it got comfortable to call him called. When he came to the to the Grendel Lopery, my wife and I and his wife. He would have the Marshal Scarce to plezz a place or somewhere to eat, and we spent a lot of time with with you know, and with Maureen, his wife. And uh. Then I had his cell phone in his office number and I could call him, talk to him when I wanted to. So he became a very close friend.
00:17:21
Speaker 1: It’s clear from hearing the way that Judge Pickering speaks of Justice Scalia that he deeply valued the man and his friendship, and a friendship that was all brought about by a simple invite to come down to Mississippi to bass fish in Turkey on. I’m curious about what mister Breelin and Judge Bramlet’s early impressions of Justice Scalia were as well. Yeah too, gentlemen, tell me about what some of the early interactions with him was like, I mean, let’s start with you. For example, you get a phone call from him saying that Justice Scalia is coming down and he wants to come turkey on and what was your first interactions with him?
00:17:59
Speaker 7: Like, well, amazement from a poor Para county country ball to be able to meet to Justice. But the first time we went hunting was on my place. We had a turkey goblin fairly close to us, and there was a bush hog trail coming from where the turkey was roosted to where we were sitting, and I would have bent my house that he was fixing to kill that turkey. But just before he got in shooting range, a hen flew down out of a tree right in front of the turkey and we never heard or saw the turkey again. So he didn’t get to shoot a turkey. That was a gimme. So but he enjoyed it, you know, the challenge of it, the challenge of turkey hunting from the ground at that time. So I was surprised that he chose to come by.
00:19:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now I have to admit, due to my own personal bias, I really do love the fact that his first time hunting down here in Mississippi and quite possibly his first time hunting altogether, although I don’t know that for sure. Was a spring turkey hunt, and he all know how I feel about spring turkeys and a turkey hunt that resulted in a roosted gobbler and a surefire set up getting spoiled by hen at the last minute, but getting close enough that you get to hear and see the turkey, just enough that the new hunter is hooked for life. Man, it doesn’t get any more classic than that. I was curious about Judge Bramlett’s early interactions with Justice Scalia as well. Now it is important to note that his very first hunting interaction with him was that accidental three deer morning that we heard about at the top of the show. However, he has a whole lot more early memories to go along with that one.
00:20:07
Speaker 2: If I had called him, you know, my father would have come out of his grave to correct me. I always called him Justice, just as Wesley did. He brought with him, Uh, Chris Larkin. That was his relative from New Orleans, You remember, Judge and Louis Prajean. Yes, and that morning I told him, as just Pickering said to you earlier, we need to kill some dose. Lewis killed three. To make a long story short, I loaded eleven up in the back of my truck and on the practice I got a picture of it right here, right eleven.
00:20:51
Speaker 4: Uh.
00:20:52
Speaker 2: We never talked about the law. The only case that he mentioned to me was the VA my case, and he had strong feelings about that, you know, and I believe Justice Justice Ginsburg was on the other side in that case. I know he was in the minority, but you remember that case. It was about females at VMI, the details of which I don’t remember. That’s the only case we ever talked about in all the sixteen years I was with him.
00:21:23
Speaker 1: So was it correct me if I’m wrong? Do you kind of get the sense that when he came down here he didn’t want to talk about that. He just kind of wanted to disconnect.
00:21:32
Speaker 2: I think he would have talked about it, not telling me anything that he shouldn’t have, but I didn’t want to bring it up, and he didn’t either want to talk. He was interested in everything, what kind of trees of these. He wanted to know everything about the floor and the fauna, everything about Mississippi. And he’d heard so much about it, as everybody else had, and he was amazed at the racial harmony that we had beginning, you know, in the late nineteen nineties, Sir, that the nineteen sixties were gone. And I have photographs here the Justice with some of my African American friends as one right there, and he enjoyed talking to them. So that’s my best recollection of our times together. And we did have many and other places, like Judge Picken was kind enough to invite me to Florida, South Carolina.
00:22:28
Speaker 3: You know, Justice Scalia. Of course we talked, and he really was very fond of Judge Bramlet. And one of the reasons that he was so fond of Judge Ramlet is that he found a kindred spirit. Judge Remnant was curious, Judge Scalia was. Justice Scalia was curious, and he was amazed at how much Judge Remnant knew about animals and plants and everything, and both of them was very curious. I don’t think he minded talking about cases and so forth, because now he wouldn’t have told us to think about pending cases. But I don’t think you mind it.
00:23:03
Speaker 1: While I can’t help but appreciate how quickly Justice Scalia seemed to take a strong love for the outdoors. I’m more impressed by how much impact he had on all three of these men, and frankly, how much of an impact that they had on him. It’s clear that all of these guys were close friends, and as a born and raised Mississippian, on a personal note, it does my heart good to know that Mississippi and the American South put its best foot forward when Justice Scalia came down. We’re gonna go ahead and round off part one of this series, and yes, plot twist, this is a two parter. Frankly, there’s just too much good stuff and key points to try to squeeze into one episode and still do a justice. But we’re gonna finish today’s episode off with another quite humorous story from Justice Scalia’s hunting adventures.
00:23:50
Speaker 2: Wesley, you will remember one thing about him. He was very competitive.
00:23:53
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, very much.
00:23:55
Speaker 2: You knew more about that than I did. Tell me about that, tell him about how betty he was.
00:24:01
Speaker 7: And we tried to not shoot anything till he did.
00:24:05
Speaker 1: Now, did he know about this arrangement that you know we’re trying to know was it was an unspoken thing between you all three, like we were trying to let Justice kill one first.
00:24:14
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah.
00:24:16
Speaker 3: And we learned early on that if you were turkey hunting with Justice, Cleo, he was not going to kill a turkey unless you had him in a blind or shooting house.
00:24:25
Speaker 1: Oh why was that?
00:24:26
Speaker 3: He couldn’t stay still?
00:24:28
Speaker 2: Oh, he couldn’t. He moved.
00:24:30
Speaker 3: So we hunted with you know, Red Hancock or Trucking. They had some great hunting land and they invited us to bring you over there. And I was going out with one guy and another guy carried him out. I told him, I said, you got to get him in a shooting house. He said, I can handle it. When I got back in, he said, you were right. He said he was constantly moving that rifle back and forth or moving. He just couldn’t stay still. And you could tell him, it’s Justice, you need to be still. He was still moving.
00:25:04
Speaker 1: I hope all of you are enjoying this different look at Justice antonine’ scalia as much as I am. And believe me, we haven’t even gotten to the best part yet. And that’s a fact. I want to thank all of you for listening to Backwoods University as well as Bear Grease in this country life. And hey, by the way, all you find folks that choose to listen to this podcast feed. We want to hear from you.
00:25:25
Speaker 6: What do you like, what do you not like?
00:25:27
Speaker 1: How can we improve this show for you? Y’all are the ones that matter most in this equation anyway. Go to the meat eater dot com slash grease now, fill out the survey, let us know your thoughts, and as an added thank you, you’ll be entered to win a five hundred dollars gift card to the Meat Eater store. Respond by June fourteenth to make sure that your voice is heard, and be sure to tune in next time for part two of this series
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